11 Apr 2012
April 11, 2012

Episode 1 – First Meeting

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The premiere episode of Ram Dass Here and Now! Raghu Markus of the Love Serve Remember foundation explores the origin and early years of Ram Dass. Never heard of Ram Dass? This episode will introduce you to the man and his work.

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

Raghu : Hi I’m Raghu Markus. As many of you know, Ram Dass partnered with Timothy Leary to help create the psychedelic movement of the late ‘60’s.  In his quest Ram Dass was looking for a map of consciousness.  A map that would answer all of life’s big questions. Who am I? being one of the biggest.  What am I doing here? What is this culture that I am living in the midst of?

And so when psychedelics did not totally do it for him, he went to India to find the map. What he found was an enlightened being who knew everything about him and saw him as no one had seen him before. That is, without judgement and only with love.  It was Ram Dass’ first experience of unconditional love.

Now when Ram Dass came back to America he toured the country sharing that experience and speaking the words that would become the book Be Here Now. Of course, before he left India, his guru told him do not say a word about me – and that’s all he did when he came back.

Now at that time I was the programme director of a major alternative rock station in Montreal, Quebec.  As far as spirituality was concerned all I knew about was the Hare Krishna people at the airport and … but I had seen a picture of an Indian saint named Meher Baba  and underneath were the words ‘Don’t worry be happy’. Well I dug that. That made real sense to me. That was the beginning of something making sense.

So one day I received a call from a promoter asking me to get the station to promote a lecture by a man named Ram Dass.

I had no idea of a Ram Dass but then he told me that it was Richard Alpert.  Did I not know Richard and Tim?  Of course, I loved them and so I asked the promoter to send me a previous lecture of this Ram Dass and I would let him know if we could support the evening.  The tape was sent to me that day and I went into the studio.  Everything I had been needing to hear about how all this works for years and years of thinking about this stuff. Suddenly clarity. But it wasn’t just the words. It was the presence of the voice. The idea that I could be happy. Suddenly everything made way more sense. So, I played Ram Dass lectures day after day on that rock and roll station and the response was incredible.  People had never heard anything like this before.

And in fact when I finally did make it to India there were some people from Montreal who had heard these lectures, and got turned on and made their way there and we have been close ever since. So here is a bit of what we heard back then.

 

Ram Dass:

The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection and the water has no mind to receive their image. That was the first message I got from the first fortune cookie I opened when I returned from India. And it seems like a fitting contract for these meetings. And perhaps the full implications of that contract will become clear as the afternoon continues.

What I’d like to do is to present a model to you … and the specific model is my own life experience. That’s really all I have to offer to you – of my own experiences.

And I would like to clarify the reason for doing this.  It is not my expectation, or my hope, that any of you necessarily would undergo the particular journey that I am pursuing. I am not proselytising for Ashtanga yoga.

But we in the West are faced with a very interesting predicament through a variety of circumstances, some of which are built into the culture like changes in communication media and so on. Some of them are the result of the chemicals that have appeared and been widely used – psychedelics.

Some of them are personal experiences people have had which previously they kept hidden but now they begin to redefine or they’ve hidden them under labels that society provided them which made them seem like psychosis or insanity or something, and they now reconsider them. As a result of all these circumstances many people in the west including me, and I assume you and that must be what’s bringing you here; appreciate the possibility of states of consciousness other than our normal waking state of consciousness.

Or maybe you are here just because you look at the world in which you’re living and you say, ‘Well, we obviously can’t handle it with what we’ve got going, so I’ll at least look for something else.’ even though you may not have the faith in the possibility that there is something else, but you’re gonna look anyway.

So we’re presented with a possibility and it filters through to us from one source or another that there is a very ancient tradition of people who have realized other states of consciousness and have sent messages and made maps. But the problem that we have as westerners is, that we can’t understand the maps. The maps are there, the secrets are not secrets in the sense of ‘I’m not gonna tell you’, they’re secrets of, they’re secrets in the sense that we cant  hear.

Jung in his writings in the book by Wilhelm called the Secret of the Golden flower, its a eulogy, Wilhelm, he commends Wilhelm for having the courage as a westerner to give up his predispositions of thought to be able to get into that position from which he could appreciate the eastern writings from a, from an inside point of view, in other words give up his identity as a westerner.

The term that you may be familiar with its required, is what’s called surrender.

And so what we can do for one another as westerners, is collect the data that are available to each of us as we open ourselves to them. We are all on a journey. We are just as Herman Hesse talks about the fellow travellers on our journey to the east. East not being literal necessarily but metaphorical.

And what we can do is we can help each other along.

We can be the satsang, the sanga, the spiritual community, the support for one another.

Giving each other the confidence to keep pursuing this possibility.

And we give each other our own lives to help and that’s what I would like to do today.

Is to present as I say, the model, because maybe there’ll be some clues that will be of some use to you in your own sadhana, in your own spiritual journey.

But in doing this I am going to work on myself throughout this whole afternoon as I’m always doing.  Doing my mantra, japa, and therefore I’m really not speaking – I should tell you and I hope you aren’t listening. Because the place where I am and I hope you are – is the same place. Where we together are witnessing one of us speaking and the rest of us listening.

But let’s not get trapped in our social roles.  It’s a good exercise.

Now the reason that my life may be useful, although from most other standpoints it seems, even to me, quite trivial, is that I have a  … He led three lives

I have three chapters each of which has led quite naturally in to the next although at the time it didn’t seem very natural.

The first chapter was that of being a social scientist.

The second was that of being an explorer in the psychedelic community and the third is that of being a student of Ashtanga yoga.

And I’m going to take you through my trip to show you why each of those transformations occurred. As best as I can.

In 1961, in the fall of ‘61, I was at the height of my academic career.  I had obtained my PhD from Stanford in psychology and through a, more through charm than scholarship I will admit, I had obtained a assistant professorship at Harvard, and a number of research grants and a role as a therapist at the health service and at the time I had research contracts at Yale and Stanford and when I was on leave from Harvard I’m teaching at the university of California at Berkeley.

So I had four major universities cornered and in the academic ladder that’s climbing pretty fast. I was 28 and I was being groomed for all kinds of things. Right. I was definitely on my way up.

Now, as a result of working these 70 hours a week, I was amassing a lot of money and I was using this money to live as a cosmopolite or a bachelor. Under these circumstances mind I had an apartment filled with antiques. And a Mercedes Benz, and Cessna airplane and a Triumph motorcycle, and an MG sports car and a sail boat. And I went to the Caribbean skin diving and I, you know, that kind of life.

I was an empire builder very simply, that the best way I labelled myself.

Well, with it all, although it looked awfully good on paper there was something wrong inside about it. I don’t think I’m yet ready to be able to label because I’m probably not free enough to be able to have objective understanding of it, to be able to label what really didn’t feel right I can give you some clues about what didn’t feel right.

One of the problems I was teaching these very hip courses at Harvard. I was teaching Freud and human motivation, personality development and clinical psychology. And all of these students would come seeking my wisdom. And the problem was that I knew I didn’t know.  I mean I knew everything you had to know in order to be a professor of psychology at Harvard. But when you got down to the nitty gritty of what had something to do with people’s lives I knew that it all didn’t add up right. Because I had all these various roles. I was a researcher studying child development and so I could see how the variables we were working with didn’t quite get to what that kid was all about.

Then I was a therapist and so many hours a week I had somebody sitting on the other side of the desk, and he was playing patient, I was playing doctor I would run thru my list of theories as he would run through his list of symptoms and we’d compare them and match them up and, you know, it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t … it didn’t quite gel.  It was as if psychology had a reason to be as defensive as it was.

Because as if behaviourism hadn’t quite gotten hold of the critical variables in human experience.  And I looked around, I looked at my psychological and psychiatric colleagues and they seemed to be really just about as neurotic as anybody else.  They would come and they would be psychologists from 9 – 5 and then they would go home and they seemed to be roughly as hung up in their marriages. Their children seemed to be as destructive as other people’s children. They seemed to show the same personality manifestations and it seemed a fair question that if all of these theories were so good and these people were the masters of them – why wasn’t it reflected in their own human behaviour?

Now I had gone – I had really tried, I had gone through five years of psychoanalysis and most people hide behind that and say well it was a didactic analysis. That is, I did it so that I could help others, it was a teaching thing I didn’t do that, I did it because I was neurotic and I paid because I was sick and I wanted to get well. Because I knew that I wasn’t making it in the world the right way,  even though all the credits were, you know, the by line had all the credits.

But at the end of five years of psychoanalysis it was apparent that since I knew a lot about Freud and could keep pointing out to my analyst where he was making misinterpretations on the basis of 1906 paper or something like that, that my defences were at least as strong as his tools. That’s all that roughly 25 thousand dollars demonstrated to me.

I hope those of you that are invested in those particular professional roles will appreciate that I am probably still merely acting out my negative transference.

And as far as the other things in my life, if you take the motorcycle, when I first got the motorcycle I loved to climb hills with the motorcycle and do hill climbing races with it. And go roaring off into the night into the Californian hills at 95 miles an hour, with a girl holding on to the back and the wind blowing and holding on for dear life and there was a thrill, there was something that was very great and at that moment, there would be a moment when it would just feel … just that place would feel good inside. That was about one moment, then all the rest of the time it was cold, you know, or it was rainy. And so after the newness wore off the motorcycle sat in the garage and the airplane sat out the landing strip. Because after a while each of the things, the possibilities of each of those vehicles for giving me that thing I was looking for inside, had been explored and they were very finite and I had appreciated what their limits were.

Now it was at this time that, er just as this… I was settling into working for my tenure. That is I was told if you get your publications in order we’re holding a chair for you. Which meant, you know, publish or perish, get those books out, look good on paper. And so I was doing just that and although it was a little discouraging to see, I already saw that this wasn’t going to make it in life, this was my commitment for the next four years.

Now I had a big corner office at Harvard, with two secretaries and about forty research assistants and, as I say I was an empire builder. And down the hall in a little closet like place there was this other guy who had come back from Italy. Who had been riding a bicycle around Italy, and had been found by the chairman of the department who brought him back as the new bright thing for the department and his name was Timothy Leary. And he was a fun-loving, drinking Irishman and we were bachelors and so we started to share evenings together and …

He said he was going to Mexico in the summer and I said that I’d like to come down too and that we ought fly- take a trip across the north of South America in a little plane and I told him I flew. Which wasn’t exactly true, I had a student licence at the time and he said great that we would meet in Cuernavaca on a certain date and we would take off from there.

So I then secretly went out and got my licence, and then nobody would trust me with a plane, so I had to buy one. Or the bank bought it actually. And off I went with the licence one day old for this hair raising trip. Believe me, quite a hair raising trip over the mountains into southern, into central Mexico.

Well, when I got there, Tim had just had this experience in which he had taken the sacred mushrooms of Mexico. Which he had gotten from a woman called Crazy Juana, acurandeira up in the hills, who would put one in your hand and two in her mouth.

And I heard many stories about what had happened to him in this experience.

There weren’t any more of the mushrooms around and we didn’t take the trip across South America we just hung out down in Tepsilan and Cuernavaca, then we flew back to the US together in the plane with his son and an iguana and I went to Berkeley so I couldn’t do anything more and he went back to Harvard to start exploring these chemicals because he said he had learned more in this one experience than he had learnt in all of his years as a psychologist.

So when I came back to Harvard in the spring I was quite eager to have this experience. And he had gotten hold of the synthetic of these, called psilocybin so on March 6th in 1961, it was the night of the biggest snow storm of the year and my parents home was about two blocks away from Tim’s big house.  And I went to my parents to visit and then I trudged though the snow and went over to Tim’s house to turn on. Which we did in the kitchen with a variety of assorted people. In our usual highly controlled manner.

And the first part of the experience had that certain unpredictability about it that er …Tim’s son’s dog had been out running in the snow and came in and in our timeless minds it seemed like it was gasping for breath for too long and we thought it was going to die. And it was by then 12 o’clock midnight on a Saturday night in a raging blizzard and we imagined ourselves carrying this dog to the  veterinarian  four miles away, when we weren’t even sure the dog… it wasn’t just us. So we called his son down from upstairs to ask him… to see how he would act with the dog and he came down and the dog played with him so we assumed everything was alright.

And then I went off into the other room, and I was sitting in the living room by myself after all of this tragic comic hallucinatory revelry.

I was sitting in the semi darkness, the light came in from the street, it was snowing, and it was very beautiful.  I was sitting there and suddenly in the dark across the room, I saw a figure standing there and as I looked more closely I realized that the figure was myself.

It was dressed in a cap and gown strangely enough, and what I saw was my ‘professorness’ across the room. It was what you call in psychology, what I called at the time a dissociative experience.

And so I looked at this ‘professorness’ and I said well, and it wasn’t me any longer  I was here and there was it, and I said ‘Well I guess I don’t really need that anymore’ and I sat back and relaxed. And the minute I said ‘I don’t need that anymore’ the figure changed and it was somebody else and I sat forward and there I was again except now I was, um, the young cosmopolite. My ‘cosmpoliteness’ was sitting over there, alright well I guess I can do without that. Sat back. And in a sequence went by all of my social roles, ‘loverness’, ‘wise man’, ‘kind person’, all of my roles and each one: ‘OK, well too bad about that one’, there it goes.

And then went by ‘Richard Alpertness’. Now, this was another matter you see. This was, this was who I learnt to be, way be back then and I wasn’t at all sure I was… What happened when you gave that up? And I … went through my mind the thought ‘What have I taken with this drug, this mad man Larry has given me?’ See it’s already his fault!

And what’s clearly going to happen now is that I’m going to be an amnesia case because I’m losing my identity. I wont know who I am. alright well I can always get another social identity.  I went through this thought process.  I’ll give up ‘Richard Alpertness’. At least I am my body.

But as those of you that have experimented with this world l know I had spoken prematurely because as I looked down at the couch nothing below my knees was visible any longer and as I watched, slowly, it all disappeared until there was only the couch, on which I was sitting.

Now the kind of panic I experienced at that time is … er, has been reported, usually in the tabloids as the dire consequences of irresponsible use of psychedelics.  Because there was nothing in my model of the universe that led me to believe that if I was not in my body there would be anything left ….um….so as far as I was concerned I was dying or ceasing to exist.  That was it. And I recall the feeling. I recall the adrenalin flowing. I recall the sweat breaking out. I recall wanting to scream out for help. I recall all those feelings and as the panic was mounting in whatever it was mounting in since  I wasn’t seeing anything ….   a voice inside of me said, very quietly and rather jocularly it seemed to me, in view of the gravity of the situation.. But who’s minding the store.?

And …. I became aware at that moment that although everything by which I knew myself was gone, still there was something, in me, that was watching this whole process disappear.  There was what I at the time was calling a scanning device or a point of awareness; something in there that had no reference to body;  no reference to personality; no reference to any of my social roles and yet there it was clear and lucid and watching the whole thing and just, you know, watching it all happen.

And the minute I defined it or labelled it or named it, I experienced a tremendous exhilaration, a tremendous feeling of liberation.

And I remember jumping up and I ran out into the snow and danced in the snow. And then later I recall going back through the drifts to my parents home around five in the morning and deciding as a young tribal buck that I would shovel the snow in the front and I was shovelling and my parents came to the window and opened the window and said ‘You damned idiot come in, you don’t shovel snow in the middle of the night’. And  I looked up and I heard this voice which was the kind of voice of external sanction to which I had always responded since that’s how I got to be where I was and I listened to the voice inside and the voice inside said it’s cool if you want to shovel snow its all right there’s nothing immoral about that alright and I looked up at them and I smiled and I danced a bit of a jig and I went back to shovelling.  And the window closed and I saw them smiling behind it.

Well um now I was presented with a peculiar dilemma because the next Monday when I had to get up and give my lectures in human motivation – the theory of ego psychology which I was expected to present as a responsible member of the psychological community, I saw, was not adequate to the experience I had had.  Because that place that I had gone to, I couldn’t find it in the book. I couldn’t find it in the book anywhere.

Freud’s unconscious was too, had too much to do with the uniqueness of the individual and too much to do with personality qualities.  Even Jung’s collective unconscious wasn’t quite the place – as I later explored more carefully. And I couldn’t find the words to tell anybody about what had happened and I hid behind what we all got to use quite frequently of ‘This was an ineffable experience. I’d like to tell you about it but it’s ineffable. Sorry.’

This podcast has been brought to you by the LoveServeRemember foundation and ramdass.org. We appreciate all the support for the foundation and for Ram Dass’ work and we hope that you will continue that support.  You can go to ramdass.org and click on the ‘Donate Now’ button and follow the prompts.  Thank you.

Transcribed by Sue Friston

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  • http://www.ramdass.org Dakini

    Love it, all peace and love to Ram Dass. Jai Hanuman!

  • Hanuman Tirtha

    Really Great, Funny, insightful, takes me back in time or deep inside.

  • http://sitaramdas.com Sitar

    beautiful!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ih4Fg6P730&list=WL96872F42343E34A3&index=41&feature=plpp_video Bootoo82

    Amazing

  • James

    You inspired me to go to a Buddhist monastery. Thank you Ram Dass!

  • Kristie

    So excited for this! Thanks to Duncan Trussell for spreading love.

  • http://wemetonchatroulette.com Jenna Liston

    Love it! But is that a bunch of consistent laughing in the background? He is making such great points and people are cracking up? Which is why everyone should not just listen to this podcast, but buy Be Here Now as well to read and enforce the story!

  • TJ

    I am loving awareness……….

  • http://www.jordanf.com Jordan

    First heard Raghu Markus on the Duncan Trussell Family Hour, wow – what a great podcast. So excited to hear more….. Thankyou!

  • http://n/a Fred

    Got here through my brother D. Trussell. Very eye opening podcast, thanks guys! love, peace and respect!.. .

    Fred

  • Laurie Thiboutot

    I LOVED hearing his story and am wondering if and when you are gonna continue from where that one left off! ?? I am anxious to hear the rest of it!

  • Laurie Thiboutot

    Oh I now see we have to wait till May 1st…..bummer!

  • http://www.omwords.com brian

    Jenna, I too am guilty of cracking up. Ram Dass is a wonderful, light hearted storyteller. Laughter is a powerful medicine and it sounds like you could use a spoonful!
    Namaste

  • Connie

    Simply wonderful <3

  • Kayv

    Anyone know what the song at the beginning is or any music similar to that?

    • http://www.ramdass.org Editor

      Kevin,
      It is a musical group called MPath that is a collaboration between Raghu (the show host) and the musical producer Gardner Cole.

      Thanks for listening!

      ~Rachael

  • rebus_minus

    the story about the tragicomic hallucinatory witnessing of a boy playing with a dog siriusly made me laugh. brilliant.

    this is all golden. thank you so much to every one involved.

  • zarathustra

    … thank god the dog wasn’t dead after all.

  • rebus_minus

    the revelry of the tragicomic hallucinatory witnessing of the son playing with the dog siriusly made me laugh. thank god the dog wasn’t dead after all.

    brilliant.

    thank you so much to every one involved in this project.

    namaste.

  • Shane Possible

    What is the name of this lecture series and how do I come upon listening to the rest of it? I wish Raghu would have left some show notes, references, or something. Add one to the list of individuals who ended up here due to the trust held in Duncan Trussell.

    • http://www.ramdass.org Editor

      Hi Shane, thanks for listening! We’re still getting this podcast up and running, but you can be assured that we will be posting show notes & references here in the next few weeks – Raghu is out of town but as soon as he returns we will put something together. The podcasts aren’t necessarily from a specific series of lectures but rather a compilation of several of Ram Dass’ earlier talks.

      Be well!

      ~Rachael

  • http://www.sexandlovecounselling.com sofie

    Thank you it has changed my morning into joy in my heart that
    It was all Ok me not wanting to work as therapist
    any longer. My detachment from my son became
    Full of love for him and the meaning of our lives is joy
    of living. Wish you Love and Thank you for being.

  • http://www.sexandlovecounselling.com sofie

    Ps: I speak and write Russian if you need my service to
    translate anything or edit or what ever you need:)))

  • brendan havel

    as “ineffable” as the awareness of that moment of self-realization, we are one.

  • Gary

    Starting wth the first episode, was this the talk given at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada in August of 1969?

    • http://www.ramdass.org Editor

      Gary – This lecture took place in October of 1968 in New York City.

  • Gary

    This is the series that were broadcast on KPFK in either 1969 or 70 on a succession of Friday nights. I had recorded most of them on cassettes, but in the ensuing decades, they were lost. Good to hear them again. Was the 5th one the last of the series?

  • Gary

    Oops, I mean the 7th one…

  • Michael Chakraborty

    Beyond words.. Our Ram Dass is scriptures himself.

  • shea

    Do you ever wonder what abandoning your anger and negativity might empower or weaken? Do you wonder why your ego was formed? Do you wonder what traditional family values were created for? And what it means to support police and attachment? What is love if not attachment? what is community without family? What is family without loyalty? What is loyalty without anger at the broken bonds of our system, the bonds that hold a life of meaning together, supported by anger and sadness at loss, determination to hold on, fight, drive… things that seem to be ignored or demeaned in the name of preserving peace. Well if you can remain peaceful no matter what, doesn’t that marking much matter?

  • shea

    Correction: Doesn’t that make not much matter.